WHO SAYS A WOMAN CAN PASTOR?

[newview]

I am sorry the the other thread was closed down for replies but as Sister Williams said:

***"...Deborah did, for she was in a position of leadership..."

So is Hillary Clinton. But she can't lead men in the church.
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***"...Priscilla did, for she along with her husband, was in a position of leadership..."

That was not a formal setting. They were discussing the Lord and indeed explaining for his benefit surely, but it was not a church service. I don't see where they were having services.
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***"...Can a woman teach a man? A wife does. She teaches him who she is, and what the two can learn from each other. She teaches him how to love her from the inside out...."

Not in a formal setting - like during church services.
As far as a wife teaching her man how to love her from the inside out and the top down - wonderful -Have at it!
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***"...Ministry is leadership, pastoring or not..."

Really? Because a person ministers to you - that means they are your leader?
Wow - tell that to Jesus.
Speaking of the women at the cross the bible says----> (Who also, when He (Jesus) was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto Him;) and many other women which came up with Him unto Jerusalem.
Do you really believe they were preaching to Jesus or teaching Him ANYTHING?

To minister means to be a servant, attendant, domestic, to serve, wait upon. Ministering can be serving the congregation by leading them but not in every case.
There are scriptures all day long on how the women in the Body of Christ were are to minister.
It even tells women that they are allowed to teach but with peramiters.

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

At least you are acknowledging the fact that women are not to lead congregations. And you put up the scriptures. Everyone else just says, oh well it doesn't matter that the Bible says women ought not to teach congregations, just as Gentiles should not have congregations because Israel are the Priests of God.

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

Bro. Gill I know we share the same faith, and it's not a problem to me to be considered an Evangelist, for that is my calling, to women as well as men, and I do preach and admonish the men that they are the heads of their families, churches and communities, and that the body of Christ needs them actively working for the Kingdom of God.

I cannot express the the affect that a woman telling a man that, has, and as a seed sown, I know and understand that a man has to step in and teach them how by the scriptures.

This is the same premise of the male pastor, a man can preach to me but it would be the elder women that would be able to teach me the Word is the word and one called to give the Word can be of either gender, if called. I've seen this as I minister to males and females in prison. Men will listen to a woman tell them that there are Jezebels in the world.

I believe that a woman can be a pastor and be exalted to that position properly without usurping anyones authority. I know that right now that is not our way, but it is being done, because there are women in our church that are obeying God and not man

[N'ZI Amani Germain]

Sister newview,

Please, do not waste your time with Trevor on that issue for he is a FALSE DOCTOR!

Please, see the link below and stop this discussion with that false teacher!

http://abcpreachers.ning.com/forum/topics/why-women-rights-in-the?i...

Blessings,

Brother Germain

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I remember that joke of a blog!

Now when did I declare myself a Teacher or a Doctor? If I never said I was one, then how am I false???

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

Hey Brother Germain, he another one of God's children preaching the "True and Living God"

The Lord hath sent him.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Technically speaking, the Pastoral position is the least spoken of within scripture, and yet is the most regarded today in the Protestant side of Christianity. No clear scripture, like Bro. Gill stated, speaks against females leading in ministry.

-Chloe was the leader of a house Church in Corinth (1st Corinthians 1), and yet many do not take her into consideration.
-Prophetess Anna was teaching the people about the coming of the LORD and what He will do
-In the epistle to Timothy, Paul said that a woman was not to usurp authority. The mistake is made when we do not properly define the word usurp.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

You are correct. When Paul wrote to the people though, he was speaking directly to Bishops/Pastors and Deacons. Once a place is established, the Bishopric/Pastorate was set up and the Apostle went on to another work, occasionally checking back to see how that work was going.

[Joseph Gill]

-Chloe was the leader of a house Church in Corinth (1st Corinthians 1), and yet many do not take her into consideration.

I think it much more likely that Chloe was the head of a natural household (a surviving widow, perhaps) than the pastor of a house-church in this instance.

-Prophetess Anna was teaching the people about the coming of the LORD and what He will do
I suppose that depends on what we mean by "teach." She did openly prophesy about the baby when she encountered him at the temple.

-In the epistle to Timothy, Paul said that a woman was not to usurp authority. The mistake is made when we do not properly define the word usurp.
The translation here could lead you down a rabbit hole, Bro. Greene. The KJV uses the bulking phrase "usurp authority over" in place of the single Greek word αὐθεντέω [authenteo]. That word can simply mean "to govern" or "to have authority over," as some modern translators recognized:

But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man... [NASB]
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man... [NIV]
I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. [NLT]

In the Greek, this word does not communicate the idea of usurpation. So Paul seems to be talking about women having authority, not just women stealing authority.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

YOU SAID: :"I think it much more likely that Chloe was the head of a natural household (a surviving widow, perhaps) than the pastor of a house-church in this instance."

As an Apostle, he was writing to the Bishops/Elders of the Church (literally the entire collective of Churches within the city unified as one) of Corinth, not to just a single Pastor. As an Apostle, he was addressing major issues within a Church that caused some effect on other Churches. It is the origin from where we come up with the current trend "One Church in (__multiple number__) locations!" when thinking of the Apostle, many still have "Pastor of a flock" or "Bishop" in mind.


YOU SAID: "I suppose that depends on what we mean by "teach." She did openly prophesy about the baby when she encountered him at the temple."

Prophecy comes for edification (which is literally education on things to come), exhortation, and comfort. Most people think of teaching from a past tense, educating you on facts already established. The Prophetic teaches you on the present/future tense, educating you on the truth coming. Either way, teaching is teaching.


YOU SAID: "The translation here could lead you down a rabbit hole, Bro. Greene. The KJV uses the bulking phrase "usurp authority over" in place of the single Greek word αὐθεντέω [authenteo]. That word can simply mean "to govern" or "to have authority over," as some modern translators recognized:"
True, when translating the word in a singular form, you would come up with such, however, "context" must be taken into consideration and I have heard many Bible translators state that that is often the most difficult part that translators run into. The NIV is not a respected translation because it leaves out and alters far too much information and words.

Young's Literal Translation:
"and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,"

Webster's Bible Translation:
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

That word according to Strong's is "from a compound of autos and an obsolete hentes (a worker); to act of oneself, i.e. (figuratively) dominate -- usurp authority over." This usurping authority and remaining silent/quiet speaks not of literally telling them "hey lady sit down and shut up!!", but telling them not to bring contention and not to thug their way into position. Far too often, females come with a "Women's Liberation" mentality screaming "I am woman hear me roar!!" especially after being liberated from a place of silence. Instead of coming out from a state by basically embarrassing themselves and thugging their way in, let GOD allow for them to ease them in.

[Joseph Gill]

As an Apostle, he was writing to the Bishops/Elders of the Church (literally the entire collective of Churches within the city unified as one) of Corinth, not to just a single Pastor.

The degree of hierarchization of the early church is very debatable, but leaving that aside for the moment, I think it's important to remember that Chloe is mentioned in the letter because members of her "household" (whatever that means) informed Paul about the dissention in the Corinthian church. She is not being directly addressed in the letter, so even using your assumption that Paul addressed himself to elders/church leaders, that would not have to mean Chloe was one.


The Prophetic teaches you on the present/future tense, educating you on the truth coming. Either way, teaching is teaching.

One of my favorite posters wrote that if someone "doesn't recognize the five offices of Ephesians 4:11, then they wouldn't realize that all five see the Bible from a difference angle, and therefore minister in different ways." So I take it teachers minister one way, prophetesses minister another way.


Actually, I was seeking some 20th Century translations for authenteo, or I might have looked up Young's myself. I like the verb "rule" there. I would define "usurp" as "seize by force or without legal right"; this is just not what my Greek lexicon indicates is the meaning of authenteo. That's why I think KJV (and Webster, as you quote him) are steering us wrong.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

The degree of hierarchization of the early church is very debatable, but leaving that aside for the moment, I think it's important to remember that Chloe is mentioned in the letter because members of her "household" (whatever that means) informed Paul about the dissension in the Corinthian church. She is not being directly addressed in the letter, so even using your assumption that Paul addressed himself to elders/church leaders, that would not have to mean Chloe was one.

That would be half true. Yes, members of the house of Chloe did report to Paul, however, the Church within Corinth was not just one place, but multiple meeting sites within the city. The Church was a collective name, meaning "assembly". The households were separate places of meeting which altogether made up the Church of Corinth. As far as "hierarchization" goes, the Apostle was considered the top position to answer to. That is not debatable at all. The Apostles did go and set multiple Bishops over a Church in order to bring order and continue the work that the Apostle started. That too is not debatable. It was some time during the first set of Apostolic Fathers did they start to centralize the Bishopric from having multiple in a city to one Bishop. The apostles were considered the central authority beforehand. I don't see how that is debatable at all, considering the fact that there are people who would deny another the office of apostle for the very notion of "its too high for you to attain".


One of my favorite posters wrote that if someone "doesn't recognize the five offices of Ephesians 4:11, then they wouldn't realize that all five see the Bible from a difference angle, and therefore minister in different ways." So I take it teachers minister one way, prophetesses minister another way.

Thats actually true Apostolic teaching right there! Its something that I have a hard time getting across to people!


Actually, I was seeking some 20th Century translations for authenteo, or I might have looked up Young's myself. I like the verb "rule" there. I would define "usurp" as "seize by force or without legal right"; this is just not what my Greek lexicon indicates is the meaning of authenteo. That's why I think KJV (and Webster, as you quote him) are steering us wrong.
Rule is a good word, but the context is something to consider, not just the word. You can say one rules over another in a negative or a positive manner. In the positive manner, you wouldn't have a problem with it, but the negative manner indicates that one would usurp authority, and try to be a tyrant. The words surrounding this verse speak not of a physical silence, but living in peace with one another. Hence the term "peace & quiet" go together here. This is indicated with the second verse. Understand that we read it verse by verse, but this is a complete letter. The letter in this portion started off by speaking about the Christians living in peace with the rest of the world. The letter then continues to speak of the saints having peace with each other, not trying to have wrongful rulership over each other. Paul uses himself as an Apostle, an example of authentic authority leading in love, given by GOD. He then settles the issue of who should be in leadership if it became an issue. The easiest way to settle it if there was a problem was to simply let the men lead, because of the natural order. However, if there isn't an issue with men following the female, then ok. This is indicated by Deborah leading Israel. Do you think she would be judge of Israel if the men had an issue with the Prophetess being in leadership?? compromise is big in leadership.

[Joseph Gill]

As far as "hierarchization" goes, the Apostle was considered the top position to answer to. That is not debatable at all. The Apostles did go and set multiple Bishops over a Church in order to bring order and continue the work that the Apostle started. That too is not debatable. It was some time during the first set of Apostolic Fathers did they start to centralize the Bishopric from having multiple in a city to one Bishop. The apostles were considered the central authority beforehand. I don't see how that is debatable at all, considering the fact that there are people who would deny another the office of apostle for the very notion of "its too high for you to attain".

There is no evidence that there was a hierarchy in the Corinthian church at the time of Paul's epistles. Paul was the founder/father of the church, and he asserted authority as an apostle (of course, we can also infer from his letters that his apostleship was being challenged); Apollos was apparently a foundational leader, but at the time of Paul's writing he was no longer in Corinth (1 Cor. 16:12); as to whether there were any bishops/overseers/elders of the Corinthian church, we haven't any good evidence. Rather than addressing ordained leaders of the local churches, Paul seems to be addressing the entirety of the body of believers:

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours. [1 Cor. 1:2]

It may be that at the time of the writing of the epistles to the Corinthians (approx. 53-57 A.D.) there was no formal presbytery, only local and itinerant teachers carrying forth in the Corinthian congregations.


The easiest way to settle it if there was a problem was to simply let the men lead, because of the natural order. However, if there isn't an issue with men following the female, then ok. This is indicated by Deborah leading Israel. Do you think she would be judge of Israel if the men had an issue with the Prophetess being in leadership?? compromise is big in leadership.

I don't think the judges are comparable to leaders of the church. Judges were national leaders, and during their dispensation Israel still had a priesthood that was responsible for religious shepherding. Deborah did not have a "pastor-like" position, but she was an example of how godly women can hold high positions in secular government. And, of course, Deborah was one of many biblical prophetesses; that that church office is open to women is indisputable.